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Shay Loko began her professional life pursuing a law degree because it made sense to her—but near completion of the degree, she realized what she actually wanted was something that would help her create connections through her day-to-day life. From sales to a consulting job out of Ireland, to where she is now as a senior account manager in a tech company helping others find jobs in their fields of passion, she’s learned that you should be deliberate, clear, and confident in planning your future and building your personal brand. She’s always believed that every experience is valuable; what matters are what you put into it and what you focus on getting out of it. Follow Shay as she accounts the extraordinary trajectory of her life post-law school.
Everyone's career path is different, built by pivotal moments and choices. We're on a mission to amplify those stories and examine how our decisions shape our careers.
Nonlinear is hosted by Dave Fano, Founder & CEO of Teal—a genuinely consumer-first platform designed to help people grow and manage their careers. Our goal is to empower people to land jobs they love with free tools that guide and automate the process. Learn more at tealhq.com.
Shay Loko: [00:00:00] I know Virginia deep. It means a lot. So that actually I'm able to demand a higher salary where, where I go next, or I'm able to say, look, I have this experience and this is what I achieved.
David Fano: Thanks everyone for joining. We are with Shea Loco who may not know this, but as I kind of like one of my, uh, Twitter idols. So for me, I have like, I'm like a little bit of like, Uh, what would they call it when you're like, sort of starstruck? Um, I love the content you put out there and it helps so many people and I'm kind of like, watch you do it little by little.
And also I feel like there's like a no holds barred approach, like how you do it, which I think is amazing. Um, Shay's uh, really helped. A lot of people were putting out incredible content, um, and has had a really cool career, even though she doesn't really talk about it very much. She's mostly focused on helping other people, but, uh, today we're with Shea Loco.
Shay, could you tell us a little bit about
Shay Loko: yourself? Yeah, of cool. I'll go with the job interview first, uh, job [00:01:00] interview. I would say I have a sales and relationship management professional. Um, I basically work in HR tech and I help enterprise level clients hire. You know, their best people. So, um, I do that now and I've done that for the past.
I mean, my third year of doing that. And then before that I had, um, a really like fun international career, um, which was more in the sort of finance space. Um, And then, yeah, I worked at sort of a telecommunications company, but actually I started off, I'm doing a law degree, which we just touched on, which is super, super random.
So, um, yeah, that's the kind of summary version. It definitely would be more polished than interview. Um, and then. Friends. I would just say that I am a chatterbox. I would say that, um, I always say as well, like my favorite hobby is bottomless, brunch. Like I absolutely love going to brunch. Um, and yeah, I think in my life, at the moment, my priorities are just my family and my, my friends basically.
That's, that's pretty much it. Um, and [00:02:00] yeah, it. Very kind of happy and excited at the moment because I just do get to speak to people about getting into roles. They love. It really is just like pure, I suppose, the luck and just alignment that I managed to like spend my time doing that. So yeah, that's, that's the rough, rough overview.
David Fano: So what will be cool about this conversation is. A lot of people approach it as luck and what we ended up seeing by the end, as it was quite deliberate and there was action. So I'm excited to see how we, how we uncover that. So I like to kick these off with, when was the first time in your life that you really thought about the decisions you were making in the context of.
Right. I think, you know, my kids think they're going to do something when they grew up, but I wouldn't call that like a real thought, oh, maybe it is who knows? I don't want to diminish their, their beliefs or what, the thing that they're going to do. But like when you were taking deliberate action and saying, okay, this thing is going to shape my career.
Could have been like, when you chose your major after that, like when do you feel like that moment was. And kind [00:03:00] of talk us through it a little bit. Good
Shay Loko: questions. So it's, it's a strange one. So as I mentioned, I have a low degree, right. And I think maybe similar to your kids, maybe what your kids are saying to you now is that, you know, they've always just had this thing in the back of their mind that there, there was no like deliberate thought towards it.
It was just like, okay. You know, this is probably the path I'm going to go down. And as a kid or as a child, I was very inquisitive. I was very like talkative and I was very confident and I felt like, and my background is Nigerian. And I think any Nigerian will tell you that it's always like, you know, Laurel doctor.
Well, at least it used to be. Um, so I think that it was just very. What was flowing in that direction up until I actually went and got that degree. Um, but then during the degree, I was trying to get like work experience and things like that. And I, I remember I had a particular piece of work experience and.
Well, the number is whacking along side. She actually said to me, like sometimes in [00:04:00] law you find that you actually can go a few days without speaking to another person. And that was the moment when I was like, oh my God, I, I, this is like, even though I, you know, I got a good grade in my degree, like I was that good at it.
I didn't, it kind of clicked for me then, like, is that the type of life I want not nothing against any lawyers, but it just, it just felt like it didn't suit me particularly. Right. So, um, then alongside medical, Um, again, my friends will tell you that they I've been working long, like for as long as I could, like, I've always liked to just have a job so that I can sort of have that freedom.
So I actually worked at Vodafone alongside my degree. And then, and then afterwards, so I was just, I was literally working in a sales role then, and it kind of occurred to me alongside my degree that actually, this is something I could do, not necessarily in like a retail store, but actually just like.
Postgraduate scenario. I could actually go into like a sales relationship management sort of role. So I [00:05:00] kind of took that job a bit more seriously and kind of really, you know, sometimes you can be in a role and you're kind of just like using it for the. Pause, but I was actually like in the role alongside my degree, really just trying to learn and pick up all the skills I could.
So I think during my degree, I think was probably when I was like, okay, um, let me, you know, consider I almost changed degrees, like maybe into something a bit more businessy, but I was like, no, let me finish this because it still is super valuable. Um, but let me just look a bit more at like, Something where I'm kind of working within a sales environment or like a relationship environment or where I'm just creating connections through my day-to-day basically.
David Fano: So I think that was really like a student view because I think a lot of people want that. I mean, a lot of who are facing that same exact situation every day, like mid through school. They're like, actually I don't love this. Um, but I feel like that was, uh, an interesting choice to say, you know, I'm going to finish it because like it in its [00:06:00] completion has a valid.
Without the completion, it's kind of like a different value. Like people don't just value the skills as like a, a list of classes I took. It's like, really what gets valued is the certification. So let me go ahead and do that to have this kind of like asset, um, in my history, but I already know I'm not gonna use it.
I'm gonna put it away for later. And I'm going to double down on, on these activities that I'm really enjoying doing, and I'm going to hone that craft, but I just feel like that that was a very strategic way to go with.
Shay Loko: Yeah, no, thank you. I mean, looking back now, like I can definitely see that and I even probably would go back.
I probably wouldn't change my degree because it helped me learn my immediate role after university. And then, you know, I am kind of where I am today because of it, but yeah, definitely. I do appreciate that now.
David Fano: Yeah. And I think also like finishing is a good muscle to build. Yeah. Right. It's a tricky thing.
And I sometimes think some people probably take that too far and they finished just because they have to, but I feel like that was a very good reason. It wasn't just like, oh, I [00:07:00] just finished it. Cause I thought I should. It was actually like quite thoughtful. All right. So you're doing Vodafone, which, you know, some people would be like, wait a second, you're getting a law degree.
And you're like a retail sales person. I love that. I don't care what this is. I'm really focused on the experience and the activities that I'm doing. Yeah. And really honing in on the ones that charge me up. Um, and I'm gonna use this as an opportunity to do essentially deliberate practice to get better at this.
So talk us through a little bit about that and how you made what, you know, a lot of people would probably just like right off as a silly retail job. I was like, no, this is actually an opportunity for me to learn and get better at something.
Shay Loko: Yeah, absolutely. So my time at Vodafone was absolutely amazing.
Um, I worked there for a total, I think of three and a half years during that time. So during my degree, I actually went for a year abroad in Madrid. Um, and when I came back from my year abroad, my, I messaged. Manager. And I said, can I come back I'm back? And he was like, you know, yeah, please, please do come back.
It was, [00:08:00] I really enjoyed my time there and it did, it definitely did teach me a lot. And in, even in my role now, I, for example, when I go into my role now, I kept in contact with my manager and he was actually one of my references for my current position. So it just goes to show you that, like, I always kind of say like every experience is valuable experience.
It is just what you kind of put into it and what you, what you focus on getting out of it, basically.
David Fano: I think that's so powerful. I think, especially right now in the world, we're living in. I don't know, for some reason, everything just becomes like tenuous and very binary, you know? So employee, employer relationship.
And I think if everyone can kind of embody that is actually I work for myself regardless whether I own the business or I'm an employee. Like the, the truth is like it's relationship with me than entity. And every action I take is an investment. Yeah. And it feels like whether you knew you were doing that explicitly or not, that that's kind of how you were operating.
Shay Loko: Yeah. I told him I could. That's why I'm like, should I take the credit for that? I don't know if I needed it. That's what I was doing at the time, but it's, it's, it's whacked out. [00:09:00]
David Fano: Yeah. And I, and I think that's okay. I think it can be more removed, right. It doesn't have to be, not everything has to be so deliberate and so intentional.
Um, well I think it was intentional. Maybe not deliberate. I don't know. I like the subtle difference between those two words, but you were. I'm valuing the experience. Um, and I know I have a longer-term view that longer-term belief let's call it, that this is going to be a good thing. Um, I love that. And you weren't the other thing I would say, not being there and not knowing you that well, but is, it doesn't seem like you were too focused on like the immediate results of that.
Like you aren't like over-indexing for like a paycheck or, you know, you're like experience, experience. I can afford to do this right now and whatever, I don't know what your situation was, but it's like, this just feels like the right thing to be doing and I'm enjoying it.
Shay Loko: Yeah. Yeah. That's what was my focus at the time?
I think, I mean, I'm always very, very transparent about my journey and like, even now where I'm kind of a bit more open [00:10:00] with sharing, like salary and things like that. I would say at the time, The me, like I had to come from like, uh, you know, I come from an extremely working class background. So at the time I think my mindset was okay, well, I can't afford to be doing internships, but I do need to do something.
That's going to be both valuable and it's going to give me some money basically. So that was, that was my mindset at the time. And I think that kind of, um, yeah, ended up being sort of really valuable for my career.
David Fano: So you help people do this. Now we're going to get to that. But I think the word value is a really important word.
And I think oftentimes it gets mixed up or conflated with cash and, and you know, how we define value for ourselves now and how the world does it. Right. Cause then that's kind of like the, the social pressures we have around how we think about our value in the African, like justify our value in our existence.
But anyways, we'll get to that in a little bit. Um, all right, so you're there. You love. Yeah, you didn't work there forever. Very few people work anywhere forever, anymore, [00:11:00] and you make a switch. So what, what kind of came about what resulted in that switch? You know, where'd you go.
Shay Loko: Yeah. So, so after that, I mean, after I graduated, um, I actually, that's when I started my sort of more international career, um, which for a lot of job seekers, here's where I would give a bit of advice.
Is that. Really hold onto and like highlight anything that's unique about your career or like what you might've done. So for me, that was my experience in New York, in Luxembourg and in Dublin. So it's very rare for someone as young as I was at that time to be. To be able to say, okay, I've worked on wall street and I've worked with these large banks.
Um, so yeah, that's basically where I jumped into next. It was a role for, um, an Irish company. Essentially. I was like a business consultant, um, where I was kind of working on winning contracts and then working with a team to deliver a project, basically. [00:12:00] Amazing, amazing, like unique. Opportunity that I had there, which I would say there's a book I'm reading, which basically talks a lot about like how.
You, you kind of, you have to work really hard, but also there has to be an alignment with a little bit of luck, even though I would never like anybody else to call me lucky, but I also do think that you can recognize it like yourself. So for example, it was actually when I was working in Vodafone, um, I served a young lady, like upgrading her phone contract and she was the one that told me about that, that job and that opportunity.
I ended up networking with her and that's actually how I landed the job. Um, so yeah, even though like, I, you know, in my mind. Grinding and hustling and like, you know, I'm like, well, I don't have to work so hard for all of this. Like actually if I wasn't in that position, I wouldn't then have met that woman.
I wouldn't have ended up in New York. I wouldn't have that wealth of like international experience, you know, but yeah, overall, like that experience was great and I, I definitely, I'm just like grateful [00:13:00] for that time in my career, a hundred percent.
David Fano: It's a, it's something I, I, I like to talk about a lot is a lot of the career advice out there is like, you know, write your plan where you're going to be in.
And I think what it, what that kind of line of thinking does is it, it closes off like opportunistic approaches to careers. And then I think some other people are too far where they just kind of. Keep getting recruited, they keep doing, and then they sort of lack that deliberateness. And so what's that, that right balance between strategic and opportunistic to have a career where you're open to things that present themselves to you, but you somewhat had a hand in what was presented to you by putting yourself in certain situations.
Yeah.
Shay Loko: Abs absolutely. I think about that so much as well at the moment. It's like, you definitely need to have that balance of just taking ownership, but also like being, like, be like putting in the work so that you're in the position for when the law comes to you, it's like, okay, I can actually go for [00:14:00] this as well.
I'm a
David Fano: big believer in manufacturing. Look, I Al I mean, look, I mean, there's. Yeah. I was born into a situation that gave me like genetic privilege. So I think that, you know, obviously like recognizing that, but then there's also, you know, plenty of people that are, that don't do anything with it and vice versa.
There's people that aren't doing incredible things with it. So I think having that, I think to your point, I think it's a little bit of a. To just say, oh, I was pure lucky because I think we have to give ourselves credit for some of the effort of things we do just to kind of like feel good, you know? I think that's okay.
I think we're also living in a little bit of a funny time with everyone posting everything. And there's a lot of people that are struggling. That results in us, kind of like not feeling like allowed to celebrate success with your tough, because the truth is, and you, you know, you know, this better than I do with how many job seekers you help is that you have to celebrate your successes.
Like you need to be able to. Brag about what you did. And it's hard to do that. If you [00:15:00] don't genuinely feel good about what you accomplished.
Shay Loko: Yeah. Jobs such specifically, I think like celebrate your successes every single step of the way. Like, and, and even like, even if you're in a job, like. Take note of what you're doing.
That's good. Because like, you're, you're the one that's at the center of your career. You're the only one that's not closest to your experience. You need to remember that. So, yeah. I don't think like it's tough at the moment for a lot of people, but I don't think that should ever take away from like anybody's individual successes.
David Fano: Yeah. So this thing like of just like, it's really tricky to be humble and this. This tension between humility, confidence, arrogance, right? Like, you know what just happened? Like the Peloton CEO just got, let go. And obviously there's a lot of really sad things. People losing their jobs, but it's funny, like people are really picking on him because he publicly said like, I'm not good at finance and I don't do this.
And look, I have a very hard time believing that, that. Successful as he is, I don't know him. Um, and actually is as [00:16:00] bad as he said he was. Right. So he was being kind of humble. Self-deprecating I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. And I think a lot of people do that, but unfortunately, Most people don't right.
And I think that's just like very tricky tension with like, you know, you got the Bernie Brown's of the world telling you to be vulnerable and open, which I wholeheartedly agree with. But like when it comes to career building, most people don't want to take a risk on hiring a person. Who's kind of like aired their dirty laundry.
Like I can't risk my career on hiring you. Like I need you to be
Shay Loko: flawless. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. It's
David Fano: tricky. So, okay. So you do, uh, you, you are at first derivatives doing really cool stuff, getting a lot of international experience leaning into sales is what it seems like is kind of like the track you found that, that you really like.
And sales is awesome. I love sales. I love sales as a [00:17:00] craft. I think it's a discipline. Um, a lot of people just think like people are natural salespeople. There are some people, but those people don't do sales. They do pitching, I think salespeople like closed contracts. It's. So you learned about it and then, um, and.
And then sort of, you know, your time came to an end there and then what'd you do next?
Shay Loko: Yeah. So then my, my next stop literally was, um, the company I am at now, um, which is I see it all the time is my dream job. Um, and it kind of, I think this was the point where I realized that I've come from a. It's traditional background.
I come from a law degree. Um, and obviously, you know, I'm not a doctor or a dentist, like I didn't need any specific qualifications for ourselves career in tech. However, um, I have. I haven't had the like, direct transition into this career. So when I managed to do that, um, when I managed to negotiate my salary, when I [00:18:00] managed to find a manager and a team that I absolutely love when I managed to find like a role that I was kind of good at, but also like challenged me every day.
That's when I realized, okay, I need to kind of tell the story and like, I want to make sure that people know that it's possible for them as well. Um, so yeah, I'm going into my third year in my current company now. Um, and it's yeah, it's a, it's a great alignment of my passion.
David Fano: So you, you said something that I think is, um, language-wise foggy, but I think helpful for, he was in tech and I think a lot of people think in tech means you're an engineer, product manager, maybe designer, and like the concentric circles get wider from the.
You're in sales, in tech. Um, and there's a big difference between being sales in healthcare or sales in retail and sort of upending the Intech to the function really unlocks a lot of things. [00:19:00] So how did you think about that? Kind of like as you made the transition, did you say, Hey, I want to be in tech or did it happen more?
Yeah. Sort of organically how talk us through the Intech part.
Shay Loko: Yeah. Good question. So actually, um, when, I mean, the way I structure my job set and like the way, the healthy way, I kind of see it going is that you should have target companies that you're like, okay. I would like to work for these companies.
And then. You know, connect with people in that space and that's how you kind of approach your job search. So that's exactly what I did. And now actually looking back, I think I had, I think it was about eight companies and I think seven of those eight work, I think Amex, um, was one of them, but seven of the eight.
Tech companies. Um, so it really was, I don't know whether it's to say intentional, but I think what I, what I found is that what I was looking for, the things that I wanted from my next company, like the [00:20:00] flexibility, the work-life balance, things like that. Um, the unlimited PTO, it was, it w it was, um, Tech companies that seem to offer that.
Um, so I know it's, uh, you know, like the tech spear is a bit of a buzz word at the minute and it's kind of like, oh, everyone wants a job in tech, but actually, you know, make a list of your target companies. If, if those companies fall outside of tech and then that's completely fine. Um, it just, for me, it just so happened that I wanted a role in tech.
Like it just so happened that the companies we're looking we're looking at where sort of tech companies, sorry. Um, and yeah, I did just want that crossover between like HR technology or just something very, um, yeah, just, just in sort of the like HR technology or like the jobs space space.
David Fano: So, how do you think about what a tech company is?
Right. So if you're like, you know, every company, these days has an app and you, you made a distinction to say like Amex wasn't one, um, w all [00:21:00] these things are like very blurry edges. Um, but, and now that you've worked with a ton of job seekers, and you're sort of helping them categorize the way they think about where they're going.
So for someone listening, how would you think of. Those boundaries you would put around companies that you would call tech
Shay Loko: companies. Yeah. Good question. So I, I mean, this, this, um, you are definitely right. Definitely very, very blurry. I think what I would say is a differentiation would probably be if the companies like, like wholly, um, their main revenue source is from a product or service that is based on their technology.
So for example, I know of a company who is mobile Baba, however, they are the first I think I would say in the UK, but probably worldwide that their technology is based upon. Booking in, through an app, et cetera, I would call them a technology company they're called trim it. And some of the listeners might know it.
But for example, that to me would be a technology company. I know of another they're the first like retailer to [00:22:00] basically you can order. African and Caribbean food directly to your door. They're based on technology. I would also call them a tech company. So with those definitions, I completely understand that there can be like, you know, blurred lines, but I also don't think there's anything wrong with that.
And I also think it's very much for like the founders and like the people, th th you know, the people, making those decisions as to what their company is going to be. I think it's up to them to decide. Yeah. That that's, that's the way I look at it. And obviously within technology, Completely technical roles and they are, there are non-technical roles, like, so you can have like a completely technical role and not working tech, obviously.
So yeah, there's, there's lots to it, but that's kind of the way I, I see it in my head.
David Fano: Yeah. And I think that helped people think through it, like T take that, um, that, uh, barber haircutting app, right? Like they may be employing people to cut the hair today, but that's just it, I don't know if they do or they don't, I'm not familiar with.
Um, probably cause [00:23:00] they're in the UK and I'm in Miami. Um, but that might just be something that they're doing to like bootstrap the bigger platform. Right. And so I think something to help people think about is like, what are the margins? That's why people like tech is right. Cause the delivery of the product tends to be quite inexpensive.
They can add more servers, which means they can have higher profit margins, which then means they can pay higher side. If that same company needed to employ all those barbers and stylists and needed to buy all the materials where their margins are probably quite low. So I think as someone thinks about tech and the job search, like look at like the underlining economics of the company, you probably can't get the books of the startup, but just look at like what their ambitions are, if they raised money.
Um, you know, uh, and so maybe that'll help people a little bit kind of define, I think it's usually around like margin, like Google is a tech company, obviously. Great margins on their ads. You know, something like American express I think has pretty good margins, but at the end of the day, they're a [00:24:00] bank and they use tech to enable the movement of money.
And so I think, you know, not that any company is better or worse, but as people think about moving into tech, I think those are some good parameters to kind of help define.
You're in this role you love, it seems like you've sort of ascended in the company. You've moved around a little bit, help us think a little bit about that and how to, you know, the organization is one thing, but then role and movement within the organism.
Shay Loko: Yeah. Okay. So yeah, I joined the company and I've just moved position once within the company, but also taken on a leadership role as well as my like full-time role.
Basically I joined as like an account manager. I'm now a senior account manager and then. Additional role, sorry that I've taken on is basically an events lead for what we call a job squad. So very similar to what I do outside of work. It's kind of like our [00:25:00] charity partners essentially just help them coach job seekers as well.
So it's just job seekers all over the place, essentially. Um, but I would say in terms of Ascension, I think with my role. I had a game plan. When I started, I knew I wanted to progress quite quickly. As soon as I started, I found out what I needed to do to get my next step. Um, I'm currently like in the middle of going, like going for this.
Optimize my role. I think the way it works at my company and maybe the way it works probably most is that, you know, the, the first step up, let's say it might take you the least amount of time, but then the further along you go, it will take you more and more time. So, um, yeah, I'm currently sort of in the middle ground of my next promotion.
And I think with each round of progression, I think I shared this the other day online, but it's all about. Sorry, it's all about acting or behaving in a way that's kind of beyond the functions of your core role at the minute. And I think maybe if you're going into leadership, it's [00:26:00] about looking at how your team could possibly operate better as a unit.
Are there things that are always road blocks, like within your team that you could identify and be like, okay, let me come up with a process to make this better. Let me measure it. And then let me show you the results of what I did. So that's kind of. You know, like if you're going into like maybe people management or something like that, I think if you're going up a individual contributor route, it's just more like, how have you, as a person made your role or how have you gotten to your goals in the best and quickest time possible?
And how can you also to be honest, share that with the team and help other people do that.
David Fano: So two things come to mind. One, I love for people. I would imagine some people are saying, well, how do you even know? So I that's my question. How did you know what was needed for the next role? Like what action. It sounds like you were pretty clear on it.
So what actions did you take to figure that
Shay Loko: out after I did [00:27:00] my first three months, I would say. Asked the questions I asked a lot, so not just of my direct line manager, that was also from, um, within my team. There's like three individual teams. So I also asked one of the other managers on there, um, in that team.
And then also somebody that had just done the jump from another team. So it's like throughout the job search throughout progression, I think that speaking with people as simple as it sounds, a lot of people don't, it's. Right. Like if somebody's just done the journey before you, or if they have like a vested interest in you doing well, for example, like any manager, their role is to facilitate your progression throughout a company.
Right. Um, so they obviously have a vested interest in saying, look, I've taken this person from point a to point B. So if you can figure out how, like, how they would advise you to do that, I would say that that's probably the first step. And then I think make it clear. To as many people as possible that that is [00:28:00] what you're looking to do because I think within, and it is completely up to you again, it's up to like how your organization is structured.
For example, with me, I definitely have the privilege of being within an organization where it's fine to be quite transparent, but I know that there are a lot of toxic organizations out there. Um, but I think I would advise, make it clear. To other people, what you're, what you want your next moves to be, especially your manager, because if they don't know, they can't help you get there, say like speak to people that have done it before and can help you get there.
And also just make it clear. And even if you're looking for promotion, I would say, I always give this advice to, you know, to not just spring it on the person. Um, just because. Organizations need to plan for headcount. They need to pump a budget. I would always say, if you're thinking about a promotion, you need to give them the time and the space in order for them to make it an easy decision.
So just say to them, look in three months, time Owen to be at this. [00:29:00] Well, the three things you need to see from me, or what are the three areas of improvement you need to have, like, you need to see from me and then you literally have a checklist then, so you can make your way through that. And then it's kind of a bit of a no brainer.
That's the approach I take, I think with most things I am quite direct. So, you know, hopefully it suits most people listening to this.
David Fano: So I, I loved that because I think a lot of people that I've talked to is like, well, they don't publish it in. It's again, 99% of the companies. Don't right. And the thing is you kind of need to put that plan together.
And so, so that's amazing that you kind of took, you know, uh, more of like a detective approach to it and you, you figured it out, you found out what it was by talking to people, which, you know, almost like you ran internal, informational interviews. Um, but what gave you the confidence. Or you could say lack of awareness either is fine to actually have some of these conversations.
I think a lot of people are scared. Right? I think fear is probably one of the biggest [00:30:00] like career, um, depressors in the sense that people are like, well, I'm scared to talk to my manager. You know, that job is their job. And like, I don't want them to know that I'm gunning for their job or, you know, the company's not growing.
So how could I possibly have this discussion or, you know, I think people psych themselves out, out of not having those conversations and then sort of vicious cycle starts with like being unhappy. They feel unheard. They feel like there's no room for growing, but maybe it was the whole time and they just didn't ask.
So like what, what allowed you to kind of push through and have those comments?
Shay Loko: Yeah. Okay. That's that's a good point to Bruno. I think, um, Yeah, lack of confidence is something that probably a lot of people deal with and it's not just them. I think it's more them battling like an unhealthy scenario where, okay.
The only other option is for you to literally take somebody else's job or, you know, whatever that might look like. I definitely think it's worth me pointing out and being transparent that I have a [00:31:00] fantastic manager. Um, and my next step up, wouldn't be like, The ever result in a situation where I would be, you know, stepping on anybody's toes or taking somebody else's job.
Of course, like with, with my next step up, I think there will probably be like lots of people interviewing for a couple of the same positions. So maybe I can kind of identify with it there for me in that scenario, I think. Yeah. Transparency's the only way you can go about it, to be honest, because. The basically the alternative is you kind of stay in an unhappy situation where you're not satisfied.
And I think what most people tend to do is kind of think about the worst case scenario and just think, oh, it's not going to go well like that. There's kind of no hope, but you actually don't know until you ask that question and in possibly a smaller company or like a smaller organization, what might happen is that if you have that conversation, if you speak, um, about the type of things within your current role that you enjoy.
You actually might be able to carve [00:32:00] out a lane of your own. So I think it's always worth having that conversation because the alternative is, is it's kind of just like the, the, if the fear of the unknown versus just like being comfortable in like what, you know, definitely you're gonna, you're going to be unhappy with you might as well.
Just, just kind of go for it. I would say.
David Fano: And I think that in a nutshell is, has how people think about their careers. A lot, at least the people that are generally unhappy with their careers is they feel trapped. Um, but most career decisions actually, I think way less big than a lot of people think, obviously there's big ones, but most of it's kind of undo like reversible.
Most of it, you can be much more iterative. Careers are longer than. People really give them credit for. Um, so another thing you've been doing, um, as a big fan is building your personal brand. And, you know, I, I encourage everyone. I talked to, to build a personal brand and it's funny. I see people kind of fall into two camps.
They feel. Like uncomfortable sense of [00:33:00] obligation. It's like, why, why do I have to do that now? And it's like, you don't, um, but if you do do it in an excited way and you now have this sort of asset that you own and you're in complete control of. And so I think you've done a fantastic job of like building out, um, an identity and a brand, a personal brand.
And so what kind of like led to that? How did that evolve and, and kind of like how. Nah. And it gives it more than you thought it would be.
Shay Loko: Good question. Very interesting question. Um, okay. So first of all, how it started really jobs, who she is just over a year old now. Um, and I, and it actually started from.
Essentially at the backend of last year, sorry. Back in 2020. Um, my mum had COVID and what I did, and we were kind of helping her at home. So when she went [00:34:00] to hospital, I basically wrote a thread on Twitter and I was like, right. There's not really much information out there about like, what to do, like, you know, um, so I was like, right, let me write a thread and just say, like how we looked after her at home.
And it went completely viral. I think a mixture of that and just being in a place where I actually have lots, I want to share. It was just like, right. I know what I want to share. I've just seen in a really like strange. You know, somewhere where you wouldn't really think it was gonna come from, but I've just really seen a way to like, get my message out.
That's when I was like, right. Okay. I need to start creating and just getting my message out there. So I wouldn't say it was like this intentional, like personal brand, you know, I still don't have a website for example. Um, but like, I think. If anybody is kind of like a bit hesitant about creating a personal brand.
I think the one thing that I've learned over the past year or so that I've been doing this is that first. I mean, everybody says this, but the first thing is [00:35:00] consistency. And then the second thing is. If you've got a clear message to send, or if you think that it will be valuable for yourself or for your career to be known for a certain thing, absolutely go and do it because you know, it is, it is needed.
And I think we're at a place where everybody is kind of like a, why do I need a personal brand? Should I do it? But actually you do find the more you grow, there's actually not that many people that are like. The art festival in your space, doing what you need to do. And also like your voice is so unique and it is really, really needed.
So yeah, that's what that's where people that are considering it. Um, it's a weird, like, I, I sort of like squinted when you said personal brand in the best ways, because I'm just like, I do understand it's a past, like I do have a personal brand and I do tell job seekers to build their personal brand. But I think the reason it shouldn't really be a clash, but the reason that.
That's interesting. It's just because it's just me being authentic. I have the same conversations over Twitter and I give the same advice that would give to my [00:36:00] friends and I would give, you know, and the people that know me really, really closely. So that's, yeah. That's where that came from. And that's like the advice I would give around personal branding.
David Fano: Are you even, like, were you a heavy social media user before?
Shay Loko: Nope. Not really. No. Like, I mean, I have my, like, I have a Twitter I've used Twitter for years. I've, I've got like Instagram and stuff. And obviously I have like LinkedIn, like I, you know, I think LinkedIn is literally amazing, but like not in, not like as a content creator,
David Fano: I think that's something that, and see, well, it's like they use it to read, which is great, but there's this kind of intimidation.
Around, um, just getting, going, posting, pivoting, nobody liking it. And it's just like, oh boy, did anyone hear it? And it's like, great. I can put out soup and stuff. And like, no one I can practice and no one's going to
Shay Loko: click it exactly. Like I, like when I first started, like now the community that I have, like all together, I think is about 40,000 people in this community right over, over a year.
But when I first [00:37:00] started, I was, I was tweeting. 20 to 30 times a day. And absolutely no one was like I was doing, I was just literally tweeting and just like, Just, I just had to keep going and keep going and keep going. Like it's I understand the fear and I speak to this. I speak about this with my close friends now, um, some, some of them want to like start creating content and I'm literally like the, the hardest part is starting it.
Once you do that for that first, like, you know, once you have to take that first step and just keep consistent, like after a while you literally just be flying and you wonder why it took you so long to start in the first place.
David Fano: And that from, from, you know, reading a lot of your content, it doesn't just feel like you're putting content out.
It's like, you really, you enjoy it. Like you like it. Like your threads have like a comfort in them. You wrote a book, you put it on Gumroad. I would imagine you had never done that before. It doesn't feel like you're scared or there's no fear of failing. At least it doesn't feel like that.
Shay Loko: Me [00:38:00] that's. That's nice to hear.
I think. Do you know what I would say? You're, you're absolutely right. To be honest, because I think what really, really matters to me is the results. Um, so even before like the, my page grew like massively people were saying to me, oh my goodness. Wow. Like I remember like when I had like 300 followers, like people would be like, yeah, This is amazing.
One of my, someone that I really, really admire, he owns a brand called love secular. He actually said to me, he was like, and this was like, when I literally had like 300 followers, he goes, um, like if I, if I had to invest in like Twitter accounts, like the same way you do with stocks, he was like, I would invest money in yours.
And like, literally, and after my account, like blew up, he was like, oh, I told you so. And I think it's just that it's like, I was exactly the same when I had like 200 followers and literally you'll see the same content now, because I think with everything that I tried to share, and I think this is important for anyone that's also trying to build.
I get it [00:39:00] sharing a lot for free, but also like, I want everyone to go away feeling like, okay, this is authentic. She really means this. And this is actually actionable. Like it's not, sometimes I will tweet about like mindset and stuff, which I also think is very important, but actually I want you to be able to go away and go, okay, this is what she thinks I should do.
Let me, you know, get to action and get going.
David Fano: Yeah. I think another thing is. Not being short-sighted, which I think throughout this conversation, I feel like whether you would give yourself credit for being deliberate about that or not, is that you're not playing the short game. Right. A lot of people might be like, why would you put all this stuff out there for free?
You could charge for it. And it's like, that's not the game you're playing. You're playing one around like brand. Maybe not even thinking about that term, but you know, but brands last awhile, they're, they're these things that are lasting. Uh, it can become like an annuity, an asset and, and it feels like that's what you're building.
And then the way you think about your skills, I, those early sales skills, you [00:40:00] weren't, you know, hung up on the fact that you were selling cell phones or, you know, like you were getting an opportunity to build skills that, you know, you're leveraging today. So what advice would you have now that I'm sort of highlighting and out for you as something explicit that you're doing, that you may not feel comfortable with the credit for, but flip that and say, ha ha.
How do you think about kind of these assets or these investments that you're making and it's compounding effect on your. To
Shay Loko: be honest in my day-to-day and I was actually talking about this with my best friend. And we were just talking about how, for example, let's say like one person can work at a company for two years and, you know, kind of just take a back seat and not really do much, um, and just kind of float.
Right. And then another person can, can have that same two years, but really put that all in and actually learn loads and. [00:41:00] And I think it's what you were talking about before, like sort of viewing your career as yours and like you, you kind of own it. Right. Um, I always want to be that second person because I don't view my career as like time I'm given to this company and like, oh God, I'm working a job.
I view it as like an opportunity. It sounds like creative as I'm saying it, but an opportunity for me to learn. So then actually I'm able to. Demand the highest salary where I go next, or I'm able to say, look, I have this experience and this is what I achieved because I always speak about like achievements and things like that with job seekers.
But actually you have to do the work in order to have those. So it is, it is literally that, and it's, it's the same thing with the jobs that have Shea stuff and all the content I create. I do it because I want to see results. And you're absolutely right. I do give a lot of stuff away for free, but actually.
Those who sort of, I have a few eBooks now and those who kind of connect with me on that level and become part of my paid programs. Actually, they just get the results faster and they still do trust me because [00:42:00] it's like, if I give all of this stuff away for free. You just get that much more when you, you know, when you, when you go for like the quicker results.
So yeah, I just, anything that's kind of attached to me, I always want it to be valuable. That's, that's kind of my motivation and the reason I suppose in that, I think you're completely right. I will not take credit, but I think just as a default from that, it does end up. You know, I'm, I'm building this. I don't want to say legacy, but I'm building this environment where I am thinking about tomorrow or tomorrow is thought about despite the way I kind of behave.
Um, but yeah, I don't wanna take too much credit for that.
David Fano: Well, that's awesome. Sign me up as that same person who would invest in an account I'm a little late to the game. They wouldn't get 300 followers. You have 40,000 now. Um, you get the better price than me. Um, but I'm a huge. Uh, Shane, thank you so, so much.
Where can people follow along with all the incredible things you're [00:43:00] doing? We'll link to these in the show notes, but I want to make sure people hear them from you. How can, how can they get more of these incredible
Shay Loko: insights? Basically where I spend most of my time is Twitter. So that's, um, jobs with Shea.
I also have Instagram, which I'm trying to be a bit more active on now. Um, so that's awesome. Yeah. Also jobs are Shea. Anyone can connect with me on LinkedIn. Um, Shay Loco Loco is my real last name. Um, and yeah, I absolutely like, I'm happy to share with you like my resources. I can give you a discount code, like for, for anybody who's listening, just for some of my, my resources and eBooks and things like that.
I'm more than happy.
David Fano: Awesome. So that'll all be in the show notes, wherever you're listening or watching the show. Uh, Shay, thank you. So, so much, like I said, um, you know, I DMD you awhile ago. I was like, ah, she didn't want to talk to me. And eventually you checked your DMS and you responded and I'm so happy.
I got to talk to no, look, there's a lot. I'm sure you get tons. That's, that's one of the tricky things about putting out a lot of help. Is it a lot of people then start to ask for it and you know, [00:44:00] and feel obligated to do it. So. Um, totally understand, but thank you so much for having this conversation with the, I hope it's the first of
Shay Loko: many.
Absolutely. Absolutely. We'll be, this has been a wonderful conversation and it got me thinking a lot. So thank you so much for having me here.
David Fano: And that's it for this episode of Non Linear. If you enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe, share, and rate us wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can learn more about Teal in our website tealhq.com, or follow us on social media @teal_hq. Thanks again, and please join us again to keep hearing about how we make decisions that shape our careers.